Discussions: Idea for Stables that typically run in the red after taxes

[rainee]

I was thinking about ways to make it easier for stables that run in the red post taxes (especially when there are color war-less years) to recover from it every year. I know that the way it works in the game now is that if you don’t have the money in your account you can’t do anything except sell horses and handicap. In real life, you would sell horses, but you would also have owners that would foot the bill for some horses, be able to get a loan for some things, etc. which would mean that even though a trainer ran red, they might be able to survive. 

So as we strive to make the game more realistic, I was wondering what everybody thought about loans, etc.? Or if it would be feasible to make it so stables in the red could enter races & ship racehorses still but not buy horses, make claims, or breed mares (unless in house obviously), until they were in the black? That way the races in the earlier months of the year were options for everyone instead of simply those that are large enough (with high quality horses) to make surplus every year, and it would allow stables to continue in the game instead of waiting for handicapping fees to come in or horses to sell in a slow (and seemingly flooded as of late) market? Or perhaps large stables could “sponsor” some smaller stables or the horses of a smaller stable? Kind of like a lease, but they only get a cut of the profit (maybe half?) but foot the bill while allowing smaller stables to continue to make money?

And also saving accounts for the future? Or pay ahead incrementally on taxes? Ooh what if each horses tax was paid throughout the year as was feasible? If it was built into race fees taken from winnings until it reached 5k (or whatever it was for that horse?)? Or taken as each foal was born, and each mare bred? That way it wouldn’t be all at once?
What does everyone else think?

[Starfish]

When I was first starting out, I was in the position where I was able to contribute towards the Server costs (you get FF$5,000 for US$1). It wasn’t a huge layout and helped me get through my first year Taxes.

Obviously not everybody is going to want to do that, but I just wanted to put that idea out there.

As for the Loan idea, I am quite happy to help anybody who needs it, in any way that I can. I really enjoy FF and hate to see when an owner quits for one reason or another. It is one thing when they quit because they can’t devote as much time to their “Stable” as they need to, but for somebody to quit because, even though they would like to continue, their Stable is running in the red, is really sad.

Lets see what Shanthi says she is willing to allow. I suspect that the two ideas that Rainee mentioned (the cut of the profit or the paying Taxes throughout the year), will be difficult to code. I suspect that the loan idea would be the easiest for her to code. Maybe she can set it up as some kind of Mortgage, where the “borrower” will pay back a certain amount each month, until their “Mortgage” is paid off (I imagine that the Lender would be pretty lenient with the “interest rate”).

[Shanthi]

@"rainee"

In real life, you would sell horses, but you would also have owners that would foot the bill for some horses, be able to get a loan for some things, etc. which would mean that even though a trainer ran red, they might be able to survive.

In real life you wouldn’t own the horses, though. So yes, as a trainer you’d probably be able to stay afloat, but your earnings would also be much less because you’d only be getting a percentage of the winnings, and you wouldn’t be able to sell any horses.

So as we strive to make the game more realistic, I was wondering what everybody thought about loans, etc.?

I’d really rather not get into loans/gifts because of the repercussions. On the one hand it opens up more avenues for cheating (if stable A hands stable B all their money and then quits). On the other hand, ignoring cheating, what happens if you loan stable A $100k and then they blow it all and can’t pay you back? Or quit the game and have no money? Either way, you’re out $100k and have nothing to show for it (unless FF were to give bailouts, but that’s a bit iffy).

I have considered adding some sort of “lottery” system. FF has a crapton of money (current bank balance ~250mil), so could potentially sponsor a monthly lottery of, say, 100-500k? Each month stables could enter. If a stable isn’t guaranteed to win, then any money could be carried over to the next month. I haven’t really thought it through completely, though.

Or if it would be feasible to make it so stables in the red could enter races & ship racehorses still but not buy horses, make claims, or breed mares (unless in house obviously), until they were in the black?

So if this were implemented, how would it work? Would you only get to do this for a certain amount of time? What would prevent a stable from operating in the red indefinitely? In the real world if you have no money you can’t do things, so FF operates the same way. I don’t mind the idea of doing something like this, I’m just not sure how much it would help. (Entering races and shipping wouldn’t be free, so you’d have to guarantee to make more money back from racing to work your way out of the red, which would be a very slow process - possibly an impossible one if you’re a newer stable with older/cheaper horses.)

And also saving accounts for the future?

I’m wary of this one, since the whole point of taxes is to take money out of the economy. Setting up savings accounts would reverse that process.

Or pay ahead incrementally on taxes? Ooh what if each horses tax was paid throughout the year as was feasible? If it was built into race fees taken from winnings until it reached 5k (or whatever it was for that horse?)? Or taken as each foal was born, and each mare bred? That way it wouldn’t be all at once?
What does everyone else think?

Incremental taxes could work (in the beta/rewrite), but it’d be pretty complicated math (the 5k is the maximum if you’re a new stable but the minimum if you’re not, so it would need to take that into account). Plus, I’m sure people would complain if that method were used, because they’d want all their money available to enter X race/breed Y mare NOW, and worry about taxes later.

I don’t know if there’s an easy solution. Certainly there is a skill element to the game (don’t enter your maiden 4yo who’s run 30 times in a Grade 1), but there’s also luck (stable A’s starter horse could go on to win $500k, stable B’s could win $150). So unless the tax system took that into account (and how? as stable A could only make $10k if they weren’t active and ran starter pony 2x rather than 20, so that’s not luckk or skill related), it has to apply the same rules across the board.

[ivycreekfarm]

As a stable that ran in the red at the start of each of the first few years, I find the system to be fine. It was my method that was flawed… When making breeding/buying/any spending decisions, I’ve started checking my stable budget AFTER taxes on the tax page. That really helped me keep perspective to prevent being in the red. That, combined with a little luck and a LOT more activity from me has helped me really turn things around.

[North_Oak_Farms]

I would love to see a bank system put in place where you can have a savings and checking and maybe earn interest on savings.  That way, by the end of the year, you would hopefully be prepared to be hit by the oncoming storm

[Wolfhound]

In real life selling your horses would probably be the best option or perhaps leasing them. In FF there are so many horses for sale or lease you can hardly give them away. So would a simpler system be so sell them to FF? say for  2% of their earnings subject to a minimum of  e.g. $5,000 and a maximum of $20,000? only available in Jan/Feb and to stables with less than e.g. $15,000 in the bank. This may be easier to code and would stop stables that have reasonable bank balances from using the system for easy cash. could also restrict selling to perhaps 5 horses maximum or being able to only get a maximum of $30,000 whichever comes first… this should enable bankrupt stables to start racing again but without making bankrupcy pay. Clearly figures could be tweaked thse are only guesses.